Dalit Indecisiveness on Social Justice- II

This part deals with my debate was with only one guy to make him concede that

  1. Issues of democratic rights cannot be colluded with any religion or caste.
  2. Reservation is not a punitive action (against caste-hindus or anybody)

Did I succeed ? No, may be partially but unacknowledged. So, did I quit ? Yes, with an esoteric sarcasm [it is in green at the bottom, sorry the link aint workin :O](it didnt cause much stir rather followed by a post trumpeting victory). How do I feel ? Well, I feel like I have been advancing some recondite and ingenious principles (which it is not). Not frustrated ? Not really, cause if someone cant realise he is being mocked, he is completely blinded by his “pet theory”, and you should know its time to slam the door shut. But before I did, I think I might have succeeded in breaking the punitive action theory of reservation. See, the crumbling of the concept .

Post-1 Reservation for SCs is a punitive action against UCs and must continue till the upper caste (OBCs too) come clean out of caste discrimination not just explicitly but also implicitly.

Post-2 Reservation is punitive (define as corrective) measure for the atrocities suffered by the lower castes from upper castes.Reservations arise from equity i.e. what is fair, just and reasonable and is no philanthropic grant by Indian parliament (if that’s your understanding) if that had been the case then economical backward people too would have shared the fruits of reservation.
At the outset, my friends also argued with me on these same lines however, I defended it by pointing to their ancestor’s atrocities, prevailing caste system, and its ramifications.

Post-3 I rhetorically used the term punitive, which strictly confines to this community as we are in better position to understand it but you need to conceit that and suffice to say some legal terms have intrinsic values which even though not interpreted extra constitutionally has the same effect.

This is the only good thing that came out !! I dont understand much of the Post-3 but i think the author is hesitantly agreeing that reservation cannot be viewed as a punitive action. (scoll down for a shout box, in case u need it). To extract this I had to get down to the mud but I refrained myself tuning into a pig.

if you are worthy enough to be. First, facts are not distorted (read it again) you reiterated the same but failed to acknowledge what I said, due to your shallow mindedness. Finally, to be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant. Nonetheless, true to your ID “Apocryphal” your postings lack authenticity and are erroneous. Your agonistic replies strike different cords every time . Concluding, people like you are irritation to the Ambedkarites for you search excuses for not proudly saying “Jai Bhim” disguising it with so called intellectual pursuits.

This was the best part !! When someone showers personal abuse/accusation in a debate, you are sure that she/he is falling short of back up. So ignore the titillating monkey business and dont digress. This is not my behavioural choice but “dalit experience”. From the time you innocently ask “why cant I have water here”, people bankrupt with ideas and too dunce to cook up a plausible reply would come down heavily on you. The fact is, if you can prepare a syllogism based on your premises as the debate progresses, you wont seek any refuge like the above. Contrary to assumption (of inferiority complex) this “dalit experience” instills a sense of “superiority complex”(may be Amit deo sniffed this beforehand), beware !!
top
In the end, the Buddhist affair.

  • Today reservation for OBCs is politically motivated and even on humanitarian grounds OBCs do not deserve the reservations.
  • Unless they embrace Buddhism and become Ambedkarites reservation be kept away from the OBCs. (Conversion to Buddhism is a good option for OBCs)

MY QUESTION Why is it mandatory to be embrace Buddhism and Ambedkar to claim one’s democratic right ? (Or lemme rephrase it, why would dalit support OBC reservation only on this pre-condition? Even the majority of Dalits are not yet Buddhist themselves. How is this criterion applicable to Dalit Christians and numerous small tribes who are struggling to keep alive their culture, identities with their religious belief ?) Frankly, it seems as preposterous to me as the caste-hindu establishments'(GOI) decision declaring Buddhist dalits ineligible for reservation (till 1990) and christian dalits (till now)

I could not have any straight answer to this, or any explanation to the concept how a “politically motivated decision” becomes “democratic step” or “constitutional obligation” or at least “the-right-thing-to-do” after change in faith of the OBC en mass :). Or if there was any it was a needle in a needle in a haystack. So if you find it in the transcript below, the shout-box is right below it :). The best part I would remember about this argument is his response to my last post ;))

So the debate begins with this post

R —->

Jai Bhim. I appose reservation for OBCs and I firmly advocate reservation for Schedule Caste only. Historically, reservations were meant for lower caste or SCs who were being deserted and discriminated by the upper caste society. SCs deserve reservations as their constitutional right because they were victimized for centuries, treated worst then animals, denied basic human rights. I do not agree that time has changed though the form of practicing discrimination differs. Today reservation for OBCs is politically motivated and even on humanitarian grounds OBCs do not deserve the reservations. As you all know, the old tale of a foolish king who befriends a monkey and gives the monkey a sword to guard him while asleep and eventually the monkey kills the very friendly king. Reservation is that sword; the monkey is OBCs and do we play the king? As evident from recent incidence and many more, OBCs attitude is as apathetic as the UCs towards the SCs rather worst at times. Empowering OBCs would only jeopardize our own rights. Let the OBCs learn this hard way and accept the unworthiness of Hinduism, it is too early to give OBCs these rights when our own people are yet far away from realizing and asserting these invaluable rights in all spheres of society. It would be stupid for us to think that reservations for OBCs would help us to delineate OBCs from upper caste and turn the wave in our favor. Unless they embrace Buddhism and become Ambedkarites reservation be kept away from the OBCs. (Conversion to Buddhism is a good option for OBCs). However taking a utilitarian approach, let those economically very backward people no matter which caste they belong to upper or lower get concession for education and still by no means reservation as exclusively designed for SCs in economic, social and political sphere. This approach will also be in accord with Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkars nationalist dream to liberate poor from economic bondage. Besides this, the elite SCs should be encouraged to make way for there underprivileged brethrens. Reservation for SCs is a punitive action against UCs and must continue till the upper caste (OBCs too) come clean out of caste discrimination not just explicitly but also implicitly.

Apocryphal —->

It would be stupid for us to think that reservations for OBCs would help us to delineate OBCs from upper caste and turn the wave in our favor.It was never my assumption. I believe, even calling bahujan or mulnivasi can not integrate them into our stugggle. They (have) reap(ed) rich dividend associating themselves with caste-hindus than allying with dalits, and they would continue to do so untill the socio-economic equation turns around. This is factUnless they embrace Buddhism and become Ambedkarites reservation be kept away from the OBCs. (Conversion to Buddhism is a good option for OBCs).“Unless u are a Hindu, Hindustan is not yours”- anonymous RSS pracharak. Do you find any difference in both lines of arguments ? Beats me !!Reservation for SCs is a punitive action against UCsMy caste-hindu friends, disgruntled by losing a place to a lower-ranked reservation candidate (or seemingly so), used to use this argument. And I would challenge them to provide me any academic or constitutional interpretation Reservation as such (i.e punitive action).Rahul, if you do have any source, please enlighten me.

R —->

Jai Bhim !What assumption you are talking about? I never addressed my post in reply to yours. This is my opinion in general with reference to the topic. Anyways since you made it your concern, I would certainly like to enlighten you if you are worthy enough to be. First, facts are not distorted (read it again) you reiterated the same but failed to acknowledge what I said, due to your shallow mindedness.Secondly, cannot help you if you don’t reckon any distinction between being hindu or establishing Hindustan with spreading Buddhism and try to read in the whole context; you missed the later part if it makes sense to you. I have appealed to our community not to support OBCs if they disregard Buddhism and Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar. Thirdly, Reservation is punitive (define as corrective) measure for the atrocities suffered by the lower castes from upper castes. Reservations arise from equity i.e. what is fair, just and reasonable and is no philanthropic grant by Indian parliament (if that’s your understanding) if that had been the case then economical backward people too would have shared the fruits of reservation. At the outset, my friends also argued with me on these same lines however, I defended it by pointing to their ancestor’s atrocities, prevailing caste system, and its ramifications.Finally, to be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant. Nonetheless, true to your ID “Apocryphal” your postings lack authenticity and are erroneous.

Apocryphal—->

@ Rahul oops.my mind, my Id, my worth !

    >

  1. Why is it mandatory to be embrace Buddhism and Ambedkar to claim one’s democratic right ? (Or lemme rephrase it, why would dalit support OBC reservation only on this pre-condition? Even the majority of Dalits are not yet Buddhist themselves. How is this criterion applicable to Dalit Christians and numerous small tribes who are struggling to keep alive their culture, identities with their religious belief ?) Frankly, it seems as preposterous to me as the caste-hindu establishments'(GOI) decision declaring Buddhist dalits ineligible for reservation (till 1990) and christian dalits (till now).
  2. “punitive (define as corrective)” who, when, where defined it as such with reservation in reference (cite the source). If you did it yourself, try looking up punitive measures/actions/damages and Reservation also. While we are fighting hard against the extraconstitutional interpretations of Reservation (e.g a mean to uplift dalits, to remove caste-system from society etc.) your angle seems to be just as a denial of privileges (and equality) to the caste-hindus, which is precisely their argument.
  3. “philanthropic grant by Indian parliament”..joke of the century :))))

# All
Hereis a four paged document titled “Moments in a History of Reservation” By Bhagwan Das (EPW 2002, 3831-3834). It is a brief but complete account of origin of present form of Reservation, its continual judicial review till today (2000).
https://apocryphal.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/moments.pdf I thought it took a radical transformation to say Jai Bhim or Inquilab Zindabad. Besides paying token obeisance to Babasaheb, try to follow the legacy of intellectual pursuit he has left behind.

R —–>

Jai Bhim.Your agonistic replies strike different cords every time you are backlashed revealing nothing but your hysterical nature and disarray of thoughts.First, I am very proud Buddhist and I believe democracy in India needs Buddhist philosophy rather the entire world needs Buddhism. So far supporting OBCs is concerned I have emphatically stated my reservations in my previous thread but again blame it to your lack of foresight. However, as far as non-Buddhist dalits are concerned it is our responsibility to make them aware the legacy of Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar and merge them into mainstream. Your further inquisition about criterion applicability I deem it fit to leave it to yourself to answer just because I don’t care or I real do not have time.Second, I shall reiterate my interest lies in cause of Buddhist population and let it be so if I sound egotistic Buddhist I believe it is the need of the hour. I rhetorically used the term punitive, which strictly confines to this community as we are in better position to understand it but you need to conceit that and suffice to say some legal terms have intrinsic values which even though not interpreted extra constitutionally has the same effect.About my angle, nothing is wrong but yours seems to be tangent seeking refuge in unwarranted assumptions unless you believe that treating equality among unequal’s is in fact inequality. Third, at least you agree with your jokes. Bravo!Concluding, people like you are irritation to the Ambedkarites for you search excuses for not proudly saying “Jai Bhim” disguising it with so called intellectual pursuits. History is evident that Guru Gobinsingh just to reveal Sikh identity from Hindus gave five precepts to follow so that they can be identified or otherwise. I reckon we identify ourselves by saying “Jai Bhim”

Apocryphal—->

your agonistic replies strike different cords every time you are backlashed revealing nothing but your hysterical nature and disarray of thoughts What else did you expect from a new-age “fanatic buddhist”!!I am not any doddering orthodox buddhist who believed in love and compassion even for his enemy. I swear, I involve in mindless bickering, mud-singling to hide my half-backed understanding. I digress for for the same reason, also because of the time constraint. What’s more ! I cant even comprehend that some definitions and rhetorics are strictly earmarked for this community only and construed locally as such (even if they are so obvious)and read them just run-of-the-mill. And now I realise, Buddhism is the panacea. Ultimate solution !! Let’s go burn the houses of those who are not buddhists, they have no “right” to live. Is it too much ? Who cares, lets at least disfranchise them. Because we cherish advancement of the interest of Bhuddhist population and espouse buddhist nationalism. This way we can integrate Ambedkarism to mainstream and take buddhist philosophy to the world. Since, we dont want our identities lost in the changing scenarios, lets all tonsure and carve a tattoo on our forehead. P.S. After many hysterical and disarrayed thoughts (posts), this is my last effort (last post, in a different genre) to this thread, be generous in your feedback. Please mention my craniometric data, my vision (fore/hind/eye sight), my weight, my worth (in Thai currency) and suggest some IDs for me. Jai Bhim !!!(why to irritate our fellow ambedkarites :))

topR—->

Jai Bhim!The hitch is that we both are at variance for more or less the same objectives.First, It’s hard to be a “fanatic” Buddhist, don’t you agree? Nevertheless, that is the need of the hour (especially so in India when sinister politicians legislate to dilute the identity of particular religion). Further, fanaticism differs person to person, you suppose to reckon Buddhist fanaticism as burning houses and denying human rights, never mind I expected such tangent speculations from you. To further enlighten you there are people who try to follow the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path no wonder they are fanatic as well but I admire them.Second, what’s the deal! You just failed to comprehend me. I tried to persuade the community some failed to appreciate.Third, in adding up to first para, yes! Buddhism is the “Ultimate Solution!” who am I to say this when our own great leader Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar said, “I shall convert the whole India into Buddhism”, to think lesser would be a crime.Again, the same digress speculations I deem it fit not to answer but allow you to think more rationally. (hint: how about wearing blue turbans ?)Finally, I too quit though I appreciate yours and patient others time and effort and I hope my generosity has not disappointed you this time.

My only effort to scorn at him was lost 😦 when he thought my sarcasm as rational thinking and we were part of the same effort. But when someone else congratulated him for excellent statements my sense of humor was rejuvenated :))

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